Three Finger Grip

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 SILVER

HI GUYS,
WHERE SHOULD MY FINGERTIPS BE ON A 3 FINGER GRIP. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GRIP ALMOST THE EDGE OF THE DIE AND JUST RECENTLY MOVED ONTO THE FACE OF THE DIE. SEEMS THIS WAY I GETTER MORE BACKSPIN.

HOW DOES A PITCHER THROW A CHANGE UP ?
I AM A BULL IN A CHINA CLOSET. MY THROW IS WAY TO HARD. IF I TRY TO SLOW MY ARMSWING - NO BACKSWING TO SPEAK OF - I THROW SHORT AND KNOW I AM GOING TO HEAR IT FROM THE BOX.

THANKS FOR THE HELP IN ADVANCE.

irishsetter

Silver,

I don't use the 3 fingered grip, however I START with it, then release the 2 outer fingers, leaving only my middle finger in front. You are correct, generally the deeper the grip of the fingers and thumb, the more backspin will be produced. The key is to produce only the amount of backspin necessary to slow the dice down, too much backspin and you'll see the dice "hop" at impact. I personally don't like to grip just the edge as I'm prone to lose my grip during the throwing motion. Try gripping the top 25%. As far as a softer throw, by your statement, it seems as if you use the traditional PARR throw, which means you're using a pendulum throw. I throw from the table top to avoid just this issue though I do know a couple of very good shooters who use the pendulum. Too put less energy on the dice with your type of throw, I'd recommend lowering your release point and limiting your backswing. If you throw the dice at the 35 to 45 degree angle but your release point is 2 feet off the deck, you're throwing the dice too high. Just my $0.02. Maybe those of you who use the pendulum throw can chime in...

BTW, glad to see that you've joined us here. There are a bunch of guys and gals who have been banished from or voluntarily left the dice board here. heh heh.

NC

I have to agree with a very common statement that I heard time and time again and that is that the 3-fingered front grip can be very hard to develop. Although I may occasionally use the 3-finger grip I'm more apt to use a 4-finger grip (index and pinky on the outer front edges) , stabilizing the dice and allowing me to grip the dice on the very front top edge. Personally I use something more akin to the two-finger front grip with the index and pinky set behind the dice. I have tried at least once every available grip I could come up with. When experimenting with grips I will shoot the dice with my fingers set all the way to the felt to start with. Then adjust my thumb and fingers upward along the dice as I shoot to see if the improves the throw.

As for the question on where your fingers are usually recommended to be when using the 3-fingered front grip for the most control ( remember to consider what is most comfortable for you) is that your front fingers are over the very top front edge of the dice just enough to pick up the dice off the table. Adjust your three front fingers while the dice are on the felt to set them on the edge and wiggle them to get the right feel for the dice. The thumb is usually half the way down the back of the dice hooked and or flat, but working like a fulcrum. This fulcrum like ability should allow you to control the back spin. You may want more on some tables and less on others, and this can give you this sort of ability. Backspin can of course be caused by wrist flick, but the finer details of the thumb and fingers gripping the dice can give you a more exacting control. Also holding the upper front edges of the dice force a softer throw. Of course putting this all together can be a very daunting task, I to still find myself searching for the perfect grip. Shoot your chosen grip on the dice from every possible finger position in order to get a hands on feel to your throw.

SILVER

THANKS GUYS,
SO MUCH GOOD ADVICE AVAILABLE TO US ROOKIES.
PATIENCE I GUESS IS THE KEY. I THROW ABOUT 100 TOSSES A NIGHT AND HAVE NO SIGNATURE NUMBER TO SPEAK OF. I AM REALLY JUST CONSENTRATING ON THE TOSS AND WHAT HAPPENS IN THE AIR. I HAVE TO ADMIT AFTER SEEING GREAT SETTERS LAST NOVEMBER I HAVE BEEN MOTIVATED TO BE A BETTER SETTER. CAN'T SAY I WOULD BET ON ME YET, BUT I WILL PRACTICE ALL DAY WITH YOUR SUGGESTIONS AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. TOMORROW I LEAVE FOR AN 8 DAY GAMBLING TRIP AND WILL REPORT WHEN I RETURN. I EXPECT I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PAY FOR THE CRUISE OVER THE 8 DAYS. WHAT DO YOU THINK? UNTIL NEXT WEEK GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL

The Man In Black

Welcome to the board, SILVER.

When I first began precision shooting, I used the 3-finger front grip, too. Although I was contempt on how the dice reacted off the wall, I was not satisfied in the end because I could not get the dice to fly parallel in the air.

I just recently have developed a new grip; one that I have not seen mentioned on here. I have yet to name it, but I like it. The way I hold the dice and throw them, I can make the dice fly with absolutely no spin. It is like the dice fly of the table flat and stay in that same form until they arc over and land on the table. The result is minimal bounce. This has solved two of my problems - too much energy (like you) and dice rolling excessively and the dice not staying on axis in flight. Although this is still a new grip, the results are promising. Maybe I'll buy a digital camera one of these days and send y'all a photo.

bubbles

Hi Silver

Hope the cruise went well.

Since I read Sharpshooters book, I have experimented more with the 3 finger grip. I really like it from SL1,2. They are not always side by side in the air, but they rotate nice & I get a high percentage on axis.

I grip the front 3 fingers a ¼ to 1/3 down from the top & the thumb about ½ way down (thumb always lower than fingers). At SL1,2 I belly up to the table, grip the dice, draw my fingers back toward my palm, rotate my wrist so the dice are square with the back wall, my knuckles are on the felt straight in front of me, swing my arm toward the back wall and release the dice so they go no higher than the rail and end with my fingers and thumb touching together. On a relatively soft table like Bally’s, Sands or Trump ( as opposed to the every hard Caesars or Resorts) and aiming for close to the wall, the dice almost die on landing.

Operator

Irish, your grip seems to be like mine how about your thumb is it parallel to your middle finger or lower and how much backspin do you impart.

MickeyD

Silver:
I was in the same boat you're in! I started with the three finger front, dice off the table. Then three finger front, pendulum. Now I'm a die hard two finger, off the table shooter.

Why two fingers? With the fewer points of contact on the dice, I strongly feel there will be LESS that can go wrong. Two less fingers on the dice mean that there will be two less chances for the dice to "hang-up" when released!

Wouldn't it be nice if you could get your soft, short throw to land just in front of the wall and die? It can be done. Get right in on the stick and really extend your arm when you throw.

If that doesn't work use the same shot and lower your launch angle. That should give you a little more roll out!

irishsetter

Operator,

The center of my thumbpad is on the rear corner of the dice.... just the top edge. That's the default. However, if the table is long or I'm in SL2 or 3, I may have to grip the dice deeper to get them all the way to the end. As far as backspin, again, that's a function of distance. At SL 1, I prefer about 2 rotations but if I'm further out, I'll add a little more backspin. If I'm straight out, I use the three fingered diagonal grip and really crank up the backspin.

Operator

thanks irish I will introduce backspin into my throw to see if they stay on axis better. Either right or left die seem to go off axis all the time.

DonMR

I follow all of the talk about fingers but I have a question about backspin....

I have read that some throw with no backspin at all... I believe there was a reference to the Borg...
... but I do understand how the backspin can make the dice hop madly on landing.

This happened to me on my last trip. I modified my grip slightly, trying to keep the dice together in the air. I was very successful on that point. They flew in parallel a vast majority of the time. BUT, they would scatter quite a bit when landing. There were a few exceptions to this. Upon thinking about it, I believe backspin was a player in that.

Some have mentioned that they use backspin to slow the dice down. I don't understand how that happens. Is it wind resistance or something?

Also, how much backspin is too much? Can you have too little? What about 'forward-spin'? (Although, intuitively one would think that would force the dice into the wall harder.)

BBMW

The problem with no spin is that there is nothing to stabilize the dice on axis. Backspin generates a gyroscopic force that acts on the dice to keep them on axis. Think about shot putting a football vs. throwing a spiral.

Now you don't need a lot of backspin. If you use too much, you'll get random hop on the landing. Also, and more importantly, too high an approach angle will cause random hop on landing. The angle is more important than the amount of spin in this regard. Finally, keeping the dice level at landing in important. If you land on a corner, not evenly along the lower leading edge, that momentum of the die will pull it sideways.

As far as front spin (aka topspin), I'd love to be able to do this from a SL position. I think I can from the end of the table, but that's too long a throw to really get control on the landing. If anyone has a grip that will do this from the side of the table, and can still get the dice flying perpendicular to the table, I'd love to know it.

DonMR

I figured that the backspin would help stabilize the dice on the x axis (parallel to the table, in the direction of motion) in particular. That does make sense.

I have not really addressed the angle of attack in my thinking yet. Guess I need to reread Yuri's book again... I have read many different comments on that issue. I get a feeling that it depends quite a bit on how the table reacts (bouncy, etc.).


So, I've got them flying together, but I need to slow the backspin and adjust the angle of attack. Basically reduce the energy in the throw.

Anything I'm missing in the equation?

Turbo944s2

I really had good luck with the "Ideal Grip" (two fingers right where the dice come together. The last time I went I sevened out on the third roll after the come out. Then my next roll I did it again. It always comes as 6 and 1. I gotta learn how to make the dice slow down and not jump up and hit the evil spiked backing. I plan on ordering a practice table so I can play and practice everyday. Thanks for making this awesome site.

SILVER

TO ALL,
THANKS FOR THE WONDERFUL ADVICE. PRACTICE, PRACTICE AND MORE PRACTICE. REPETITION, MUSCLE MEMORY, WELL ALL THAT WILL HAVE TO WAIT. I AM GOING BACK TO THE AGE OF EXPERIMENTATION. I NEED TO TRY YOUR SUGGESTIONS TO OVERCOME MY PROBLEM. I TRULY WANT TO THANK ALL OF YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO HELP.

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