How Did You Decide On Your Set?
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I have a general question for the board. How did you decide on your set?
I am just about done tracking my tosses for the crossed six set. Next, I want to try the Flying V set. In any case, after you tried all the sets and figured out what your signature numbers were for each set, how did you figure out what was best? I mean, did one set indicate your signature number was an eight, and another set indicate your signature number was a six, and if so, what made your decision? Or when you were done, was it was completely obvious which set you would use?
After tracking many sets in practice, I looked at the totals of each number thrown using that set and the total of all the other numbers and according to which way I was going to bet , which in my case is either Pass line with odds , Dont Pass and odds, and/or placing the 6 and 8,I determined which set was the best for me for my intent---exp---for comeout ,shooting from the rightside, I looked for the set with the most sevens to craps ratio and the most 6 and 8s that were thrown for the comeout point number, and etc----Dylanfreak (by the way the set that worked for me best on the comeout was 5/3 2/4. )
A couple practice sessions ago, I was using the all-sevens set on the 16-16 axles, and I kept coming out with a point of 5, over & over, or an occasional 9. I dislike points of five or nine because there's no set that can put 5's & 9's on all the rolling faces AND have the numbers that make up the sevens double-pitched apart.
I tried switching to the hardways set on the 16-16 axles, but I still kept getting points of 5 or 9. Finally, I realized that points of 5 or 9 are both secondary hits out of either the all-sevens set or the hardways set, and I realized that secondary hits make up 50% of our random on-axle probabilities and that we should expect more secondary hits than primary hits or double-pitched hits.
So, I started throwing on the same 16-16 axles but with the 3-2 five on top, and shazzam! I started throwing come-out sevens like hotcakes flying off the griddle.
I consider it a problem of skill rather than a signature trend that I want to rely on, but it has taught me how to think about what signature numbers are and how to change them before our skill improves.
I'm using the mini-V most exclusively now. The permutation that I'm using was determined by making thousands of practice throws and analyzing the data. I went through the same process with the V-3 and crossed sixes set.
When you analyzed the data, what is it that you found? That you hit more inside numbers, less sevens, a combination of both, more hardways, etc?
When I ask, I don't mean to try and mimic your results, I'm just curious what made you decide?
When I start with a set, I'll start with the "classic" permutation. Let's say the crossed sixes, with the sixes on top. I'll throw this permutation, and adjust the down table and dice faces. Generally you'll get a feel for success or failure within several hundred throws. Then I'll change the top face of one of the die and do the same thing. Basically, for MY throwing style, I'm looking for the best results/most forgiveness for a sub set of a dice set. For the crossed sixes, I ended up with:
Left die Top: 2 Right Die Top: 6
Left die Facing: 6 right die facing:3
Left Die Downtable: 1 Right Die downtable:4
there's data posted on the site for this set (Real Practice Data) Would this permutation work for you? Maybe maybe not. I believe each shooter is unique, and that there is no way to predict what will and will not work, without actually shooting the dice. No graph or chart can predict what permutation within a set will work for YOU or ME.
I abandoned the crossed sixes due to the HUGE amount of trash thrown and have seen solid results with the mini V.
I use the same method of deduction that Irish uses. After literally thousands of tosses I am able to analyze the outcomes for each set and determine which permutation of that set gives me the *best* numbers.
For example, using the 3 Vee will result in more inside numbers (theoretical) so I look for the permutation of that set which gives the best results for my toss.
I have found that if I err during my delivery it will often be the same error (it's in my grip) no matter the set. I will start with the basic set as described by many authors then twist the right dice the same way for every set. This maximizes my results because I have a swing flaw that shows up in my grip when I get tired, lazy, tense, excited, etc... It will take some time but you will eventually notice which one works best for your individual toss.
Ray- Linaway gave me a great permutation of the 3 Vee that has worked well for me. He calls it "5's and 9's" because the faces have 5/9 all around. The left die has 6 on top and 3 facing you. The right die has 3 on top and 2 facing you. I call it 6/3..3/2. Give it a try in practice and see if it works for you. This set results in a 5 signature for me.
I just want to be sure I understand.
Lets say you are using the 3V ee and you have a flaw in your grip so when you toss, the left die goes off axis 75 percent of the time, thus having outside numbers come up. You will turn the die, so the 3 Vee is no linger the set, but you are getting the results as if you were tossing the 3 Vee?
Miky---Its what Linaway calls tweaking the dice---I sometimes set the classic 3 -V--- 3/2 3/6 ---- for the number 6 or 8. If I have trouble hitting 6s or 8s , I tweak the above set until it looks like this--- 4/5 4/6--- still a 3-V set after the numbers have been tweaked---the axis for both sets is unchanged --- 1..6 5..2 ----Sometimes I use 4/6 4/5 which has the axis of 5..2 1..6--- still a 3-V set-----Dylanfreak
For the come out, I use straight sixes with the threes facing each other inside. I hit a lot of horns and natural 7's that way. After the point is established, I usually use the flying V with both dice turned so that the 5-1 are facing up. I made this adjustment because my double pitches tend to be top-bottom rather than front-back.
In Tahoe this past weekend I used 5/3 2/4 for the comeout----shooting for a point of 6 or 8 I used the 3/2 3/6 set and shooting for a point of 5 ,9,4,10 I used Irish`s favorite set 6/2 2/4 -- a mini v set ( by the way -on one roll using the 6/2 2/4 set I rolled 5 straight 4s, two of them hard, and I wasn`t on them)------Dylanfreak
Thanks for the info. Wow. Have I got a lot of practicing to do!
I have been practicing with the 3V. At last count (about 900 tosses), I've have been landing a lot of 6's and 5's. The 8 is my third sig. number, but that is only recently. I assume it is because my toss is getting better. It will be interesting to try a different permutation and see how that works.
Miky --As you practice more with the sets you may be like me and find that each adjustment to the grip , table position, hardness and bounce of the table, throwing motion will mean a subtle adjustment to the set---I have found my tossing of the dice is organic---ever-changing---which is why I practice quite a bit hoping that I become more machine like in my delivery, although I know that each table is different, so maybe organic is not a bad thing---just hope mscle memory kicks in ---Good Luck
I have noticed that my signature numbers outweigh the fixed dice set out-comes, or at least for myself I tend to throw the same signatures. One set will produce more 4s and 10s and one will produce more 5s and 9s, but the signature tends to be the same. V sets produce somewhat the same outcome for 6 & 8 so if they are a part of your signature I think you will see the same outcome moving from set to set.